Pakistan, A Secular State or An Islamic State?

[!~*SOoLi]

Guys give your personal Point of view, ..
Your thoughts would be Highly appreciated..

[!~*SOoLi]

Ye Aik Bohat Bara Clash Chalta Araha Hay Between Relegious & Secular School of Thoughts, Kuch Kehtay Hain K Pakistan Islam K Naam Par Liya Tha Takay Aik Islami Ryasat Ka Qayam Kiya Jaye Aur Kuch Kehtay hain K Ye Sirf Aik " History Blunder " Hay, Quaid-e-Azam Khud Aik Secular Admi Thay, .. etc etc..

[!~*SOoLi]

Must Watch Vedios Before Comment..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37kV3XWa_R8


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLcVycNQ5do

[Shaam]

very nice thread indeed
thumb up for u Salman


jaha tak topic ka talluq hai
yah is me koi do raaye nahi ek sahi pakistani ki ke Pakistan is ISLAMIC STATE THA aur HAI aur inshaAllah RAHEY GA
thora sa context dekhtey hain ke yah sawal utha hi kio.....


Islam dunya me ek concept leike aya ke hum sei her ek ke passs bht vaast magr boundries hain
hum sab accountable hain within those boundries sab sei pahlei us ke jis ne huimei takhleeq kia.
farq hum me aur west me yah hai ke wo boundries ke qayil hi nahi jab individual satah per baat aati hai
aur jab national interest ki baat aati hai tou bhi unke rules her muqaam per alag alag nazar aatey hain
yah boundries individually bhi aur min haisul qom un sei bardasht nahi horahi hain.

ab kia hoga ger pakistan ko ek islamic state ke taur per maan kar us ke law ko islamic shakal di jaaye jo ke abhi nahi hain.

sab sei pahlei yah zehen me rakhein koi mulk apne qawaneen sei pahchana jata hai ke wo kis category me fall karta hai
Pakistan ek muslim mulk hai jaha ka qanoon islamic nahi.
islamic qanoon nafiz karne ka matlab hai ke un tamam values ki nafi ki jaaye jo he madar pidar azaadi ki taraf lei jaarahey hain
jahan per phir ek qanoon hoga chahey wo prime minister ho ya koi gareeb patang uraaney wala bacha
jaha per saddar apne order sei kisi ki saza me takhfeef nahi karsakey ga
per yah cheez hazam nahi hogi
kio ke is sei soceity buildup hogi aur yahi pakistan ek threat banjaye ga west ke lia


now you shared 2 videos

pahlei me Quaid e azam ki apni awaz hai jis me saaf unho ne kaha hai ke west ne baira gharak kia hai world ka humei apne even financial usooloo ko islamic karna parei ga


second me jo baat ki hai wo ek manupilated controlled media ki soch hai
per wo becharey yah baat bhool gaye ke jo baat wo kahrahey hain wo bhi islamic state ke ehem tareen usoolo me sei hai


me quaid e azam ke kuch aqwal share karah hoo with dates takei pata chalei what his idealogy was


On August 6, 1939, he said: “I was born Muslim; I am a Muslim and shall die a Muslim.”

Addressing the Karachi Bar Association in January 25, 1948, the Quaid-i-Azam said:“I cannot understand the logic of those who have been deliberately and mischievously propagating that the Constitution of Pakistan will not be based on Islamic Shariat. Islamic principles today are as much applicable to life as they were 1300 years ago.”


In 1946, Quaid-e-Azam declared ‘We do not demand Pakistan simply to have a piece of land but we want a laboratory where we could experiment on Islamic principles.


In his message to the frontier Muslim Students Federation, he said:Pakistan only means freedom and independence but Muslims ideology which has to be preserved which has come to us a precious gift and treasure and which we hope, others will share with us. (Address on 18th June 1945)

On 5th March, 1948 he quoted:“No doubt, there are many people who do not quite appreciate when we talk of Islam. Islam is NOT only a set of rituals, traditions and spiritual doctrines. Islam is also a code for every Muslim, which regulates his life and his conduct in even politics and economics and the like. It is based upon highest principles of honour, integrity, fair play and justice for all.”

“Come forward as servants of Islam, organize the people economically, socially, educationally and politically and I am sure that you will be a power that will be accepted by everybody.”


if someone need more articles and points on ideology of Quaid e Azam and Iqbal about the status of Pakistan, kindly let me know.



akhir me ek baat kahoo ga
Allah ke deen ko nafiz karna her musalmaan per farz hai jitna us ka ikhtiaar hai utna wo mukallaf hai . jis ka apne gher per ikhtiaar hai wo gher tak aur jis ka jaha tak hai.. Chahey quiad e azam ki soch secular bhi hoti aur alhumdullilah nahi thi, tab bhi hum per farz hai ke hum unki soch per Muhammad Rasool Allah ki soch ko muqaddam rakhey.

[!~*SOoLi]

very nice thread indeed
thumb up for u Salman


jaha tak topic ka talluq hai
yah is me koi do raaye nahi ek sahi pakistani ki ke Pakistan is ISLAMIC STATE THA aur HAI aur inshaAllah RAHEY GA
thora sa context dekhtey hain ke yah sawal utha hi kio.....


Islam dunya me ek concept leike aya ke hum sei her ek ke passs bht vaast magr boundries hain
hum sab accountable hain within those boundries sab sei pahlei us ke jis ne huimei takhleeq kia.
farq hum me aur west me yah hai ke wo boundries ke qayil hi nahi jab individual satah per baat aati hai
aur jab national interest ki baat aati hai tou bhi unke rules her muqaam per alag alag nazar aatey hain
yah boundries individually bhi aur min haisul qom un sei bardasht nahi horahi hain.

ab kia hoga ger pakistan ko ek islamic state ke taur per maan kar us ke law ko islamic shakal di jaaye jo ke abhi nahi hain.

sab sei pahlei yah zehen me rakhein koi mulk apne qawaneen sei pahchana jata hai ke wo kis category me fall karta hai
Pakistan ek muslim mulk hai jaha ka qanoon islamic nahi.
islamic qanoon nafiz karne ka matlab hai ke un tamam values ki nafi ki jaaye jo he madar pidar azaadi ki taraf lei jaarahey hain
jahan per phir ek qanoon hoga chahey wo prime minister ho ya koi gareeb patang uraaney wala bacha
jaha per saddar apne order sei kisi ki saza me takhfeef nahi karsakey ga
per yah cheez hazam nahi hogi
kio ke is sei soceity buildup hogi aur yahi pakistan ek threat banjaye ga west ke lia





[SIZE="2"][B]Thankyou Bro For Replying.. Ap Hi Ki Baat Ko Mazeed Agay Barhata Hoon, Jahan Tak Main Mashriq Aur Maghrib Ko Compare Karta Hoon Kay Allah Ka Nafarman Chahay "West" Mein Hay Ya "East" Mein, Wo Isi Koshish Main Laga Howa Hay K "Relegion" Zindagi Ki Kahani Ka Aik Chapter Hay, Poori Kitab Nahi.. Jis Say Jitni Force Lag Rahi Hay Lagaa Raha Hay Kay "Relegion" Ko Samait K Worship Places Tak Mehdood Kardiya Jaye For Example Namaz Parhi To Allah Allah Hogai Phir Masjid Say Bahir Aye To Wohi Jhoot Faraib, Dhoka Dahi.. Aur Insan Ki Ye Tabiyat Chrisianity Aur Jews Main Bhi Daikhnay Ko Milti Hay Farq Itna Hay K Wo Log Officialy Ab Ye Mantay Hain K Relegion Ka Law Implementation Say Koi Taluq Nahi, Law Enforcement Ethics Ki Bunyad Par Banaye Jatay Hain Aur Insan Ki Moral Philosphy as we all knows 1971 Main Moral Values Aur Thi Aur 2012 Main Aur Hogai Hain Similarly 2020 Main Aur Hongi.. Yani Law Bhi Change Hotay Jayengay.. Example Daita Hoon K Baap Apnay Baitay Ko Daant Ya Maar Liya Karta Tha Jo Kay Moral Values Change Honay K Baad Baita Apnay Baap K Khilaf Case File Kar Sakta Hay Yar Phir Pakistani Law Main Adultry Ki Koi Saza Nahi Agar Couple Razamandi Say Ye Kaam Kar Raha Ho, Ye Bhi Change of Moral Values Hay..


Hum Muslim Par Ye Maqoola Bohat Fit Baith'ta Hay..

[FONT="Arial"]ایمان پکارے ہے کھینچے ہے مجھے کفر

Hum Log West Ko Bhi Follow Karna Chahtay Hain Kion Kay Aik Trend Ban Chuka Hay, Like Pant&Shirt Ko Humi Main Say Aik Tabqa Kehta Hay K Koi Problem Nahi Pehni Hay To Kya Howa.. Aur Phir Humi Main Aik Aisa Tabqa Bhi Hota Hay Jo Kehta Hay Kay Kafiro'n Ki Taqleed Aur Un K Mushabay Harkaat O Saknaat Humain Qyamat Walay Din Unhi K Sath Khara Karaingi, Hadith K Mutabik*! Hum Log Confusion Ka Shikar Hotay Jarahay Hain..

Aur Akhir Main Iqbal Ka Aik Shair Darj Karonga


جمہوریت ایک طرز حکومت ہے جس میں
بندو کو گنا کرتے ہیں تولا نہیں کرتے

[!~*SOoLi]

akhir me ek baat kahoo ga
Allah ke deen ko nafiz karna her musalmaan per farz hai jitna us ka ikhtiaar hai utna wo mukallaf hai . jis ka apne gher per ikhtiaar hai wo gher tak aur jis ka jaha tak hai.. Chahey quiad e azam ki soch secular bhi hoti aur alhumdullilah nahi thi, tab bhi hum per farz hai ke hum unki soch per Muhammad Rasool Allah ki soch ko muqaddam rakhey.

Sory To Say Rasool Allah "SAW" Kay Deen Ko Nafiz Karnay Wali Soch Ko Extreamist Kaha Jaraha Hay Ye Meri Aur Apki Soch Hosakti Hay Uski Nahi, Isi Liye Humain Pakistani Secularism K Sath Pakistaniyat Ko Refrence Banana Hoga, Jis Main Role Model Quaid-e-Azam Ko Samjha Jata Hay :) .. Aur Aik Bohat Bari Ghalat Fehmi Hay Hum Main, Humaray Tajziya Nigar Aur Danishwar Hazrat Bhi "Zia-ul-Haq" Era Ko Islamization aur Shariyat Kay Qanoon Ka Refrence Banatay Hain Jo Ko Bilkul Ghalt Hay..

[Polar Bear]

Nice Thread Sooli
I,ll comments Inshallah soon detailed

Thank you

[!~*SOoLi]

Nice Thread Sooli
I,ll comments Inshallah soon detailed

Thank you

sure.. Mujhay Intezar Rahay Ga Bro

[Stollen Heart]

Me ne apne Grandfather ko apni aankhon se dekha, mager us se pehle konkon thay me ke blood relation me ne nhi dekhe, mager Father ur mother ne me ko apni family ki history batai, llogon ke bare men bataya ur me ne yaqeen ker liya, is liye keh me ke pass ur koi resource nhi tha apne forefathers ki reality ke bare men jaan'ne ka, so jo kuch me ke father mohter ur grand father ne bataya me ko yaqeen kerna para,

Yehi woh log thay jinhon ne pakistan ko apni aankhon se bunte dekha, ur is men participate kiya, inhi logon ne me ko stories sunai us waqt ki, ur yehi bataya keh Pakistan Islam ke liye bana, kionkeh hum log hindu se alag hona chate thay, so ager secular system ke liye bunta to wo to us waqt hindustan men already system tha, Muslims ko tang kiya jata tha,

Quaid e Azam ne Congress kion chori, kia is men bhi muslim concept shamil nhi tha,

Sir syed Ahmen Khan ko Ali Garh school kion open kerna para, kiya unhon ne realize nhi kiya tha keh muslmanon pe education hasal kerne ke resources kum hen, Moulana Mahummed Ali Johar ne kion kaha tha keh mujhe azadi do ya phir mujhe qabar ker liye jagah do,

Kuch to beech men tha, So yeh tamam kuch me ko bazurgon ne bataya, so me ko yaqeen kerna hey is pe keh hamare bazurgon ko jhoot bolne ki zarorat nhi thi,

I hope keh yahan pe eik dim Islamic system aaeiga jo abhi tak pori muslim world men nhi hey,

[Shaolin]

guys !!!! some Common sense please
farq kia parta hai makes no difference what so ever !!!!
pakistan islam kay naam par bana ya history ka blunder tha, jo bhe tha it was over 60 LONG years ago , ab ban gaya hai ab is kay lia kuch karna just play your part kuch bhe agar kuch nahe kar saktay to at least apne existance par dhabba mat lagao , I am pakistani regardless where am born or bread , regardless am punjabi or baloch , shia or sunni , I am pakistani agar pura pakistan ghalat hai to is say bhe koi farq nahe parta am still pakistani .. As they say we need to own it ...

[beyond_vision]

Hmmm Indeed a very important issue which u've brought up Sooli, (y) :)
Before I may say anything on this issue, would just respond that knowing abt ur past and learning frm it is very important in order to do progress and bring some change in future. Therefore, it is of utmost importance to know about one's national identity as most of the social, economic, cultural and ethical development of any country depends on its national identity. This was to people who think that it makes no difference. :)

Now coming on this very debate which I would classify as the "Identity Crisis" of Pakistan, all of you have brought up some really good points and I do agree to most extent of all of your points. However, there is no wrong in being critical while analyzing the history and about believeing abt different versions of history. There is a famous saying that "history is alwayz written frm the point of view of the victorious people" and if we remark in syllabuses also, often one may find some biases in favour of that particular country.

Personally I believe that it can be great if we can blend these 2 idealogies together in a specific Pakistani context. The problem has been alwayz to consider these 2 idealogies as being completly dichatomous to each other which can perhaps be the case in western cases but not in Pakistan due to its blend of ethnic, religious, linguistic and cultural communities. In my personal view, perhaps that was what Jinnah also meant when using the words of "secularism". He did not mean it the western secularism in any sense but a more blended secularism of taking into full considertion of Islamic values and at the same time respecting all the rights of minorities also.

Now on the question of whether it was a "historic blunder" or a "pre-planned idea of a purely fundamentalist Islamic state", There can be argument on it. If we look back into the history and the documents from academic sources, one thing gets clear that the use of "Islamic identity" or the solgan of Islam was used in pre-independent era in order to get the wide support of all Muslims across India. Before religion, others symbols like language were also used but they were not that succesful, therefore the symbol of "muslim identity", and "muslim homeland" became that wide umbrella under which all Muslims were united. But, it was a temporary identity, which worked in the process of nation building and in the Independence movement but In my opinion, it was never to be the overarching Identity forever and history proved it in the case of Banglasdesh also that religion alone was not a sufficient glue to hold them together. The other identities needed also to be blendid in that like giving proper liguistic rights, having equal economic situations in which Pakistani Politicians absolutly failed and this is very cause due to which we r still facing many inter-ethnic/linguistic/sectarial problems.

Anyhow I guess its getting too long, but in short, if considered frm the idealogy of "Islamic state", then Jinnah wanted a modern Islamic state in which women wud have equal opportunities. If seen frm "Secular" point of view, then he wanted a blended secularism which wud be unique to Pakistanis and Pakistani ground realities.:)
Faiz ka aik sher yaad aa raha hay to wud finish it with that. :)
Yeh Daag daag Ujala, yeh shab gazeeda Sehar
Woh Intazar Tha Jiska, Yeh Wo Sahar Tou Nahi
Abhii Chiraag-e-sar-e-rah ko Kuchh Khabar hii Nahi
Abhii Garaani-e-shab Main kamii nahi aaii
Najaat-e-diida-o-dil kii Gharii Nah aaii
Chale Chalo ki Wo mannzil abhii nahii aaii

[!~*SOoLi]

I hope keh yahan pe eik dim Islamic system aaeiga jo abhi tak pori muslim world men nhi hey,

Totaly Agreed Bro, .. Mashallah Apkay Khayalaat Aur Information Bohat Achi Hay.. Its True Kay Abhi Tak Poori Dunya Main Kahi'n Bhi as Per Islamic Shariya Law Enoforcement Nahi.. Thanks for Commenting here

[!~*SOoLi]

guys !!!! some Common sense please
farq kia parta hai makes no difference what so ever !!!!
pakistan islam kay naam par bana ya history ka blunder tha, jo bhe tha it was over 60 LONG years ago , ab ban gaya hai ab is kay lia kuch karna just play your part kuch bhe agar kuch nahe kar saktay to at least apne existance par dhabba mat lagao , I am pakistani regardless where am born or bread , regardless am punjabi or baloch , shia or sunni , I am pakistani agar pura pakistan ghalat hai to is say bhe koi farq nahe parta am still pakistani .. As they say we need to own it ...

Indvidually Har Acha Banda Apna Part Play Karta Rehta Hay Aur Ye Achay Banday Ki Sift Hoti Hi Hay, Aik Quotation Hay,..

حب الوطن من الایمان
Patriotism is part of "Imaan"

Kuch Logo'n Ka Kehna Hay Ye Hadis Hay, Aur Kuch Ka Kehna Hay Ye Humaray Buzurgo'n Ka Qaul Hay, Baherhal Ye Alag Bahes Hay Haan Baat Authentic Zaroor Hay :) ..


Pakistan Asal Main 2 Dramatic Groups K Darmyan Phansa Howa Hay Extream Secular & Mullaism Extreamists, Yaha'n Par Theek Say Islam Ko Implement Kiya Jaye To Pakistan Ki each & every Problems Resolve Hojayen.. Secular Hay Ya Islamic Country Ye Bahes Is Liye Ki Jati Hay Kion K Law n Orders according to Islamic Shariya Implement Kiye Jaye'n, Jokay Pakistan Ka Basic Right Hay.. Kionkay Wo Islam K Naam Par Bana

[!~*SOoLi]

Hmmm Indeed a very important issue which u've brought up Sooli, (y) :)
Before I may say anything on this issue, would just respond that knowing abt ur past and learning frm it is very important in order to do progress and bring some change in future. Therefore, it is of utmost importance to know about one's national identity as most of the social, economic, cultural and ethical development of any country depends on its national identity. This was to people who think that it makes no difference. :)

Now coming on this very debate which I would classify as the "Identity Crisis" of Pakistan, all of you have brought up some really good points and I do agree to most extent of all of your points. However, there is no wrong in being critical while analyzing the history and about believeing abt different versions of history. There is a famous saying that "history is alwayz written frm the point of view of the victorious people" and if we remark in syllabuses also, often one may find some biases in favour of that particular country.

Personally I believe that it can be great if we can blend these 2 idealogies together in a specific Pakistani context. The problem has been alwayz to consider these 2 idealogies as being completly dichatomous to each other which can perhaps be the case in western cases but not in Pakistan due to its blend of ethnic, religious, linguistic and cultural communities. In my personal view, perhaps that was what Jinnah also meant when using the words of "secularism". He did not mean it the western secularism in any sense but a more blended secularism of taking into full considertion of Islamic values and at the same time respecting all the rights of minorities also.

Now on the question of whether it was a "historic blunder" or a "pre-planned idea of a purely fundamentalist Islamic state", There can be argument on it. If we look back into the history and the documents from academic sources, one thing gets clear that the use of "Islamic identity" or the solgan of Islam was used in pre-independent era in order to get the wide support of all Muslims across India. Before religion, others symbols like language were also used but they were not that succesful, therefore the symbol of "muslim identity", and "muslim homeland" became that wide umbrella under which all Muslims were united. But, it was a temporary identity, which worked in the process of nation building and in the Independence movement but In my opinion, it was never to be the overarching Identity forever and history proved it in the case of Banglasdesh also that religion alone was not a sufficient glue to hold them together. The other identities needed also to be blendid in that like giving proper liguistic rights, having equal economic situations in which Pakistani Politicians absolutly failed and this is very cause due to which we r still facing many inter-ethnic/linguistic/sectarial problems.

Anyhow I guess its getting too long, but in short, if considered frm the idealogy of "Islamic state", then Jinnah wanted a modern Islamic state in which women wud have equal opportunities. If seen frm "Secular" point of view, then he wanted a blended secularism which wud be unique to Pakistanis and Pakistani ground realities.:)
Faiz ka aik sher yaad aa raha hay to wud finish it with that. :)
Yeh Daag daag Ujala, yeh shab gazeeda Sehar
Woh Intazar Tha Jiska, Yeh Wo Sahar Tou Nahi
Abhii Chiraag-e-sar-e-rah ko Kuchh Khabar hii Nahi
Abhii Garaani-e-shab Main kamii nahi aaii
Najaat-e-diida-o-dil kii Gharii Nah aaii
Chale Chalo ki Wo mannzil abhii nahii aaii

Thanks for the Reply, .. Will comment on your post later, have to go..